Trigger warning– Christian virginity/purity culture throughout (which is absolutely not sarcasm as a trigger warning).
__________________Also, I told you not to read this, Mom._______________
I talked a bit Tuesday about how I lost my virginity, in my post on rape culture. I sort of mentioned but didn’t go into detail about the fact that the loss of my virginity was somewhat emotionally unmooring for me, in addition to the manner in which I “lost” it being awful. So today I’m going to talk about what I was taught about sex and virginity.
What I learned growing up: sex is power, but it’s all potential energy; once you’ve fallen, you have no more leverage.
The virginity cult(ure) sets women up for rape and abuse.
This line always gets annoyingly hidden at the top of the page after the jump.
I had no sex talk at home.
I learned what the word “fuck” meant, when I was 12, from reading Forrest Gump, which I got at the library because my parents wouldn’t let me watch the movie.
I had no sex ed at school, outside of a couple days in 8th grade “health” class where we talked about diseases you can get.
In contrast to the yawning void of information about sex at home and at school, at church we did talk about sex. And how you should not have it! Except when you’re married, ’cause then it’s AWESOME, guys, Song of Songs is totally erotic, etc, etc. Married sex, so great. Don’t y’all do it though. Nobody wants to drink out of a cup that’s been spit in or food that’s been chewed on [if you have sex you are a gross and spoiled thing], and if you glue two boards together and then rip them apart, one board (the girl board) leaves a chunk of herself behind. [if you have sex with someone, you can never break up with them. and sex leaves wounds.]
They told the boys not to masturbate. They told them this kind of all the time. Pretty sure I never heard any speaker for our youth group, or any youth event I attended, or any Christian speaker I ever heard on the radio or in person or anywhere, ever, mention that girls might be tempted to masturbate. [Because boys get horny. Girls don’t get horny.]
A lot of it could be summed up as: Boys, don’t masturbate. Girls, don’t let boys touch you. [A woman’s place is to be pursued, not to act. Also, girls don’t want sex.]
A proper Christian woman should be a virgin on her wedding night, because if you gave it away to a guy you were dating he’d be right to dump you, because if you gave it up to him you might just give it up to anybody [gross].
Being pregnant was an expulsion offense at the (not even religious) private school I went to. Not getting someone pregnant. Just being pregnant. [Because sluts are embarrassing. And girls need to know that sex has consequences.]
This is a “True Love Waits” pledge card. It reads: “Believing that true love waits, I make a commitment to God, myself, my family, my friends, my future mate, and my future children to a lifetime of purity including sexual abstinence from this day until the day I enter a biblical marriage relationship.” It has a spot for your signature and a date. [Your sexuality belongs not only to you and God, but to your parents and your community and your future spouse and children.]
I signed at least two of these in high school.
We were also taught to “guard our hearts.” Boys only want one thing from girls, they said, and you need to not go having feelings for guys that might lead you to give in to their sinful sexual desires. All of those feelings and all of those desires belong to [aka are owned by] your future husband.
Joshua Harris’s book, “I kissed dating goodbye,” about “courtship.”
My youth group in high school, and the christian culture I was around even into college, was big on those Joshua Harris books about guys asking girls’ dads’ permission to “court” them and not kissing till your wedding day. [Because sex is supposed to be really good, but also a total surprise! And quasi-arranged marriages are preferable to letting women make choices!] Not being able to know whether or not your husband was “good” in bed and having nothing to compare him to was always listed as a plus of abstinence till marriage. I ended up knowing a few couples who didn’t kiss until they were engaged. This was considered really praise-worthy. I also knew a few women who had anal sex with their boyfriends because then they’d still be able to gift their husbands with their ‘virginity.’ Yes, really.
I had to watch what I wore, lest… boys. My parents would not allow me to go camping with only female friends, because “there would be no one to protect you.” [aka we might get raped.] I couldn’t go camping with a mixed group because that’s just improper. [aka we might have sex.] My brother went camping, with guys and in mixed groups. Me and my vagina could not, though.
My brother once literally brought out guns to clean when my boyfriend came to pick me up, because Dad wasn’t home to meet the boyfriend at the door. I’m sure my brother mostly just thought it’d be hilarious because “cleaning guns when the daughter’s boyfriend comes over” is an American trope. But what do you think that shit tells girls if you actually think about it? [Couldn’t have the boyfriend thinking I might not be under someone’s protection. What happens to women who aren’t under someone’s protection?]
There’s a southern colloquial saying that goes:
Why is it better to have sons than daughters? Because when you have a dog, you only gotta worry about it. When you have a bitch, you gotta worry about every dog on the block
^^ This was also considered hilarious. And it’s not very subtle about owning women.
The culture laid out this explicitly adversarial view of relationships: Men want sex and women want commitment. Women should be the gatekeepers to sex, and derive their power in relationships from this carrot and their self-respect from being good at that task.
As a woman, you barter for affection with potential sex, but should never deliver without commitment. Men are willing to fake commitment to get sex, but once that happens, the woman is disposable to him. I was taught that no one worth having would want me if I was too easy.
We were taught all our lives to be pleasing and agreeable, compliant
and obedient to boys and men. But not tooo pleasing. It’s the woman’s [impossible] job to both obey and to hold the line. Keep him happy and
push him away. Live so far up on a pedestal that you get different weather.
‘Cause it’s not safe on the ground.
Outside of speaking explicitly about sex and relationships, the culture also helpfully explained that I only had self-worth and the right to self-respect if I also wasn’t perceived as being sexual, and definitely wasn’t actively pursuing sex. Because girls were told we should dress modestly out of respect for ourselves. We were told that we should value ourselves too much to wear super short shorts.
Every time someone nattered about “what signals does she think she’s sending?” when a girl had on a midriff-baring top, I learned that it’s bad (or maybe even dangerous?) to look like you want it. Every time you tell a teenage girl that you value her for her brain and not her body so please cover up her body because you want her to respect herself, you’re telling her that she can either have self-respect or a sexual body but not both. (rebuttal.) When you tell her that the reason she can’t wear revealing clothing to school is that it distracts the boys, you’re teaching her that what she wears is responsible for men’s behavior.
All of that is horse shit. There are just no more words than that. But that’s really hard to see when you’re inside the bubble. And it’s a REALLY BIG bubble. That is really hard to crawl out of.
I hope this paints a picture for some of you who grew up in the northeast, maybe, or California, or in a city, or with liberal parents, or in more liberal circles, who think this shit is a caricature when you read about it: It isn’t. Every single one of these stories is my lived life. It’s the lived life of a lot of women.
And this culture of “modesty” and “waiting” and “virginity” and “purity” is fucking harmful.
All of the boys I dated in high school and college, always “respected me too much” to have sex with me. They believe they’d have ruined me if we fucked. Because they were raised in the same culture I was. Because a woman can either be the kind who has sex, or is worth respect.
Because you can’t do both.
This is also where the virginity/purity culture dovetails into rape culture. When you divvy women into “respectable” vs “sexual” categories, you have a huge congregation of women who you’ve labeled ‘not respectable’ and ‘for sex.’
And when *any* sexual behavior can get you put in the “not respectable” and “for sex” category then you propagate the idea that consent to any certain thing is consent to anything. [because you put yourself in the sex category.] And you teach boys that girls who are acting sexy are not worth respect and are “asking for it.”
And then you really just should not be that surprised when girls get raped by boys they know.
Personally, I have always wanted sex and kissing and touch and affection from men. So I always knew what category I was in. Think about girls growing up who do have sex drives (aka most girls). Now think about the constant looming implication of letting it be known that you want to be sexual. And always being on guard against it.
The bargain was that I could either get the physical, sexual stuff I wanted, or retain my self-esteem and my power. My right to draw my own boundaries. My right to have emotional needs within a relationship. I’ve never really been able to withhold sex as a bargaining chip. I fail at being on guard against being known to want sex. I’ve always wanted it as much or, (mostly) more than the men I’ve been with. I would always go as far as they wanted, because I wanted it. So I grew up believing that that meant that I de facto had no power ever, in relationships with men. I was always willingly giving it away.
I chose to have sex a bunch of times in college. I never forgot that a huge proportion of my peers and the people who raised me, considered me to be choosing sex over the right to be respected, by myself or anyone else.
The corollary of ‘guys that respect you won’t fuck you’ is: if a guy fucks you, it’s a pretty sure shot that he doesn’t respect you.
I tolerated a lot of really shitty relational situations because I was raised to believe that if I was gonna go ahead and be sexual with a guy, I didn’t have any right, it wasn’t really reasonable, to expect any consideration in return. And on the other side of that same coin: I believed it was considered totally normal, maybe even admirable, when a guy I was dating would repeatedly rebuff me for physical affection, even just kissing and cuddling. I tolerated this, despite the fact that it shredded me. I was not aware bad situations were actually bad. Me having sadfeels was not a valid reason to object to being ignored, it just meant I was having feelings I shouldn’t have. I knew the bargain going in. I hated myself for being such a girl about shit.
And then I grew up.
jk no but really.
It gets better. Not just for queer kids. For everyone who doesn’t fit in to a narrow-minded culture. For everyone who counts the days until they can leave their shitty hometown (or their entire backwards state). If you take control of your own life, once you get a chance to take control of your own life, it gets better.
I graduated from college and moved out of the south. I went into science.
And I still carry scars and wounds from the culture wars. I am still learning to be kind to myself. Still learning that my physical and emotional needs are both valid, and are not an imposition just by existing. Still learning a lot of things about having a healthy, adult relationship.
But I married a boy who I fucked the night I met him. And one of the reasons I fell in love with him is that he respected me completely, and my ‘easyness’ had no bearing on that. Why did we have sex the night I met him? Because I wanted to and he wanted to and we were both grown-ups and so we did that. I was done pretending to be a delicate flower in order to attract the kind of guy who is attracted to the kind of girl who doesn’t have sex.
’cause here’s the thing: True love doesn’t wait. True love doesn’t wait around for you to earn worthiness. True love doesn’t make you wait because it thinks it knows better than you, what you yourself want. True love doesn’t demand that you dice your feelings into acceptable little portions. Affection over here, attraction over there.
True love respects your right to make your own decisions about what you want to do with your body. Whether or NOT you want to be sexually active. And true love knows you’re a messy, worthy human being person already and loves you right now, without waiting.
Disrupting Dinner Parties 
Powerful and revelatory in more than a couple of ways. Thank you for writing this, rosiefranklin!
I really like this article! It’s an under-discussed and important topic, and one to which I wouldn’t have given as much thought as it deserved, had I not read your perspective on it. As one of those people who grew up in the northeast with liberal parents and friends (and I’m a guy to boot), I’m grateful for the opportunity to expand my understanding of pressing topics to which I’ve been underexposed.
This piece was insightful, thorough, well-written, and compelling, and I consider it worth the lasting headache I got from wading through the never-ending circus of type styles. I’ll probably send a link to a bunch of people I know, along with a copied-and-pasted plain text version.
Thanks.
and also lulz. It’s difficult for me to alter the tone of my voice and wave my hands around at you while you’re reading pixels, so I did my best to convey the general emphases I was going for. 🙂
I am imagining you as the most animated talker and look forward to meeting you in person to see if that is so!
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Reading this post and the previous one just left me shaking. You are not alone/we are not alone. Thank you for making the rest of us feel less alone.
I was extremely fortunate in the choice of my first partner (I can’t call it anything other than luck, because “blessing” would imply that God only cared about some of us, which would be so very very awful) who is now my husband, but even that didn’t leave me, or him, undamaged by the cult of virginity. Because I was a virgin and a “good girl,” doctors didn’t tell me about a major issue with my hymen until I was married and uninsured and unable to break it…something my parents would have paid for if I hadn’t been too ashamed to tell them. Something they’d have happily paid foreven before I was married (they did so for my little sister, whom I privately spoke to and took to a doctor so hers could be corrected). But even though I suppose from the outside it might’ve seemed like still having an intact hymen would be a victory, it’s all made into such a monumental thing and part of one’s identity that…it was probably the most miserable 6 months of my life before it got fixed, only coming up against the 6 months after my mother died. My husband felt awful for making me cry so much during attempted sex and I made him keep going so that it would eventually break. It left scars on both of us that took several years to get past.
I recently helped another woman who’d recently married and discovered a similar problem in getting through hers. Listening to her brought up those raw feelings again and made me realize how very messed up the whole system is. Both of us should have, even if we’d waited to have sex until married, been told about this by our doctors and given options. All I got was some cryptic remarks, including the phrase “bank vault,” which I just interpreted as “full hymen.”
Basically my teen/HS years right here. I dated a couple older guys I knew from church and was repeatedly broken up with for SITTING TO CLOSE TO THEM ON THE COUCH. Like wow… really?? My mom even yelled at me for sitting too close to a boy on a bench.
I was once unceremoniously dumped out of a guy’s dorm room after we made out because, he told me, “I don’t do that.” Clearly you do, bro.
Thanks for taking the time to write this and share a little bit of your life and lessons learned. I think you make some really good points about how so many people in the “purity” culture can preach endlessly about dignity and respect, but at the same time act so disrespectful and undignified to people who have “fallen”. It really is a shame too, because if Christianity teaches anything to its followers, it should be teaching that we are ALL fallen; we all need redemption and we are called to treat EVERYONE with the love, respect and dignity that they deserve as human beings (because we are all in this together). And I agree that the cultural expectation that somehow guys bear no responsibility for saying no to sex is complete BS.
I grew up with a lot of the same talks that you heard although a slightly different perspective, and I’m glad that I did. The aspect that seems the most unfortunate from your story though is that they focused on all the shame and derogatory aspects of sex before marriage and ignored the deeper meaning of why Christianity places such a huge emphasis on linking the sacrament with the act. Fear and shame are horrible motivators and they were NEVER what Jesus used to inspire his disciples (he used them occasionally to scold his enemies, but that’s another story) one of the most common phrases that God speaks to his people (whether the Father, through an angel or Jesus) is ,”Be not afraid.”.
As a Christian, I believe that God loves us and stamped his love into every aspect of creation. The question then becomes, “What kind of a messed up ‘loving God’ would give me a desire to have sex and not want me to make use of it? Why the heck do I have that desire for anyway?” The answer is simple, He does want me to make use of it and He actually made it so extremely desirable because He is inviting me to actively participate in his creation of the world every time that I have sex.
One does not even need to look on the spiritual level to see that, even biologically, sex has two functions: Babies and bonding. It is the only natural way that our species can continue and it produces an effect in our brains that makes us want to stay with the person that we are having sex with. As someone who believes in God, I see that as God’s way of saying that he designed me to have sex with someone who I actually want to commit to freely, totally, faithfully and fruitfully in marriage. As a person who recognizes the validity of Science, I see that as Nature’s way of saying that sex is desirable because it can produce children and help people stay together (and raise them). As a guy who isn’t married yet, I see that as extremely frustrating…
But also very exciting. Yes, it’s frustrating because it would be so much nicer now for me to have sex with anyone that I want whenever I want, but it’s exciting because I am actually learning how to love. It’s exciting because sex was never designed (spiritually or biologically) to be all about me. It was designed to be about an “us”. The issue with the current hookup culture isn’t that it cheapens our worth. A culture can’t do that. Nothing can. You (and I) are made body and soul in the image and likeness of God and that never goes away. The problem with the culture is that it distorts the reality of what we were made for and what will truly make us happy and it cheapens our understanding of our worth. It says, “Sure you’re a diamond, so what? There are millions of diamonds out there, there is no reason to protect it. Besides, diamonds are stronger than anything else out there anyway, you can handle it…” Our culture tells us to just do whatever we want. Most people at least accept the caveat that we should make sure it correspond to what the other person wants, but that is secondary to what this culture teaches.
On the flip side, Christianity proposes that we find fulfillment specifically in making a gift of ourself, in serving others, in love…
I found it interesting that you never actually defined “love” which it makes it difficult to determine whether it should wait and what it should wait for. That being said, you had a great description of it:
True love doesn’t wait around for you to earn worthiness. True love doesn’t make you wait because it thinks it knows better than you, what you yourself want. True love doesn’t demand that you dice your feelings into acceptable little portions. Affection over here, attraction over there.
True love respects your right to make your own decisions about what you want to do with your body. Whether or NOT you want to be sexually active. And true love knows you’re a messy, worthy human being person already and loves you right now, without waiting.
I could not agree with you more on that statement, but I have to ask if you see love as choice or a sentiment/ feeling. From where I stand, love is a selfless allegiance of the heart, formed and solidified by the will. It has to be a choice (although romantically, it should certainly have some sentimental support). And so when I say that I “love you right now without waiting” I’m saying that I care so much, right now, about your wellbeing that I would rather die to my own personal desires than engage in an act which I know we aren’t fully ready for. If we aren’t ready to share the most intimate and unitive bond that can be made between two people and possibly have a child, then I won’t have sex with you; out of love. I’m also going to appreciate it when you dress modestly, not because it makes you more “worthy” but because I have to override every biological bit of myself in order to see the person in front of me instead of a mere body [a Princeton study using CT scans found that men who see women dressed in revealing clothes default to seeing them as objects instead of people]. That being said, you can dress however you want, have sex with whomever you choose, search for your fulfillment however you see fit. I will make no demands and certainly won’t pretend to know what you feel or what you want (I hardly know what I feel or want and by the time I do it usually changes). I will only offer you some portion of my life as gift. You are free to accept or reject it and I will choose to love you and choose to treat you with the dignity and respect that you deserve as a Beautiful human being person. I will undoubtedly fall short, but I would prefer to fall short of a lofty goal than allow myself to be carried by the whims of any given moment and a sentimental definition of “love” that could never possibly last a lifetime.
I hope you find all the peace, joy and fulfillment that your heart desires. Congratulations on your marriage and God bless.
AMDG
Oh man, this is exactly the culture I grew up with in the rural Midwest–albeit from the male side, which is also pretty damn confusing. Thanks for your eloquent description of a confused (though usually well-intentioned) culture that many people don’t realize exists.
This was a great read. I grew up in the Deep South but, having been born in California, I always rebuffed a lot of the cultural mores that I found ridiculous (e.g. saying yes ma’am/sir alllll the time) and I just never had to worry about boys getting too close. I would like to point out the irony of the attitudes of the Bible thumpers you described because it sounds eerily similar to the oppressive environment in that one country we went to “liberate”. Sitting too close on a bench? Not being allowed to hang out with boys? Being worth less if you’re not a virgin?
Thank you for posting this. My sister and I were raised without religion and home schooled until our mom died when I was 11. When my sister was in her early-to-mid teens, she started going to a church that pushed this crap on her hardcore. And it led to her agreeing to marry someone when she wasn’t even at the age of consent here (aoc is 17) — she was 16 — to someone 5.5 years older than her, (TW: DOMESTIC ABUSE!!!!!!!!!) who ended up pinning her to a wall, bruising her ribs, and spranging her wrist.
“I’ve never really been able to withhold sex as a bargaining chip. I fail at being on guard against being known to want sex. I’ve always wanted it as much or, (mostly) more than the men I’ve been with. I would always go as far as they wanted, because I wanted it. So I grew up believing that that meant that I de facto had no power ever, in relationships with men.”
That is awesome, and really insightful. Thank you for writing this. A friend sent it to me, and I appreciated reading every word. I grew up in New York, but definitely experienced some of this in my school and church — both places I love, to be clear, and I know everyone meant well. But I also agree with what you are saying, and wish that I’d had this to read when I was younger.
Thank you, and I’m glad that this got sent to you. Please feel free to pass it on to anyone you like, especially younger women. I wrote basically what I wish I could’ve read when I was younger, myself.
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I think it’s more because you grew up as a rich white southerner ..this is why you have this shallow understanding of ‘Christian purity’. I’m just curious what your tolerance meter is towards the Islamic burka?
This just breaks my heart. Aside from religious views; there are so many implications to endulging in sex outside of a marriage relationship. What plans and dreams do singles have? Sex can alter these dramatically.
There are restrictions and rules in life to protect us, not to limit our enjoyment. Every action has a reaction. What are we willing to live with? This is not about female rights or power. Over 70 million Americans have a sexually transmitted infection and every year there are 19 million new cases. They can make you sick today or can cause problems later in life. They include SERIOUS problems like cancer and infertility and some can even lead to death. There is no cure for herpes (or HIV). You do not have to have sex to be infected by herpes or HPV. They can be spread simply by contact with the infected skin. You get STIs during ANY sexual activity even if the person is unaware that they have an infection. (This includes vaginal sex, oral sex, and anal sex.) You can reduce the risk of infection by using a condom correctly and consistently. However, consistent condom use (100%) during vaginal sex only reduces your risk for HIV by […inaccurate STI statistics removed by editor]. Waiting to have sex until you’re in a faithful, lifelong relationship (such as marriage) is the only certain way to avoid being infected sexually. If you have been sexually active outside of a committed relationship you need to have an STD test. Many can be treated to prevent further damage.
I know this sounds preachy, but this goes beyond clothing and hairstyle choices. It’s not about who-looks-down-on-who or what others might think of you. It’s about protecting yourself Emotionally, Spiritually, and Physically. Look at what your relationship would look like without sex in them. Where is this relationship going? Is this person kind and caring, does he/she communicate and listen to you, do you have shared goeals, common interest and values, does he/she have honesty, integrity, forgiveness, a good sense of humor, do you respect and trust him/her? These are all keys to a healthy relationship that isn’t defined by sexual desire. I appreciate your honesty and hope this adds a different perspective to your past experiences.
Regular (like at least annually) STI testing is indeed proper practice for sexually active persons. You can find a location to get tested here. (assuming you’re in the States.)
Thank you for sharing this. I grew up in the same situation as you (minus the pastor’s daughter circumstance) and have grown up with some pretty twisted views of sex that I still find hard to shake. I, too, signed those True Love Waits cards. From age 11-16 or 17 I used to cry thinking that if I had premarital sex that would be the ONE thing that would make God shoot me straight to hell, regardless of anything else I did in life. I made my boyfriend wait a year before we had sex, using that sexual bargaining chip to ensure commitment. I also wanted to ensure that I was 18 before we had sex, no only to legally protect him because he was 2 years older, but also because I believed that a 17 YO who had sex was somehow sluttier than an 18 YO. I wanted to be a good role model to my future, unborn children (?!?!) to tell them that they CAN wait, they don’t have to have sex so young. That same boyfriend is actually my husband now. One reason that is the case (not a significant reason, but it’s one of those subconscious things) is that I used to essentially assign value to people based upon their number of sexual partners. So with me only having one partner, I was better than others who weren’t as “strong” as me. How messed up is that?? While I did not hold that superiority over rape victims, these beliefs and practices are absolutely a direct result of the virginity culture you describe here.
I still remember in 9th grade health/PE in my Southern state, we were having a brief sex ed session on the bleachers. (The majority of “sex ed” had been taught, however terribly, in earlier years, so this was a co-ed review session of sorts.) Because we were older and wanted to know more than what a drawing of the fallopian tubes looked like, some students asked about condoms. We were never given a demonstration (it is foreign to me when on TV when I see people bring out bananas and cucumbers to school for this purpose). The PE teacher simply said “I’m sorry, I cannot talk about that.” That spoke volumes to me about the level of honesty, maturity, and quality of the sex ed I had received. The lack of information and the shame felt around sex, particularly for females, has done a disservice to all young people growing up in that culture.
oh man. condoms. I definitely never saw one in school.
I’m from the UK and at least where I live we don’t have that kind of purity culture, in fact we kinda have the opposite. And I’m an atheist. But I still find that I have a low opinion of girls my age that have sex. I’m 15 btw. So I don’t think that comes from religion or purity culture or anything, I think it comes from evolution and biology and stuff.
First off guys will do it with anything that moves because there’s no disadvantage to them. Once they’ve done their part they’ve fulfilled the biological need to spread the genes, so they can just go off and do it with as many women as possible to maximize their chances. That’s why guys don’t want commitment.
For a women on the other hand her biological value is in her fertility. Getting pregnant and stuff is a huge thing and means she needs to take years out of her life to care for a child in order to pass on her genes too. So if she’s really careless about that, doing it with any guy then she’s going to loose her value (biologically speaking) much more quickly. While a guy going about doing it a lot is only going to gain value.
That’s why women are the ones in power when in comes to sex. They’ve got the most to loose in the transaction, so they are the ones that need to have the most say in when and with who they do it. And guys will just do it with anyone. It’s all just biology in the end, and yeah it kinda sucks how it ends up unequal for women but that’s just the way it is.
– I’d be really surprised if the UK didn’t have a conservative purity bubble, though you don’t seem to be growing up in it.
– there are a lot of reasons you probably have a low opinion of girls your age that have sex. None of them are biological, except for in the sense that they live in your brain.
– Guys are people with feelings. That is a scary lesson to learn, but it’s true. Some are still douchebags, but they are actually people.
– Evolutionary psychology is almost entirely utter crap. Please ignore anything you read that says modern human men are ‘programmed to spread their seed.’ Human sexual behavior serves almost entirely social functions and has for many millennia.
– You have value even if you are infertile, I promise. You are also a person.
– Women do bear some greater physical and social risks of sex. The rate of STI transmission male to female is higher for many things, and you are the one at risk of getting pregnant. So protect yourself. Get on birth control if you’re going to be sexually active. And refuse to participate if your partner refuses to wear a condom.
Yeah but that’s what I’m saying. I know in my head that there’s no logical reason to think lowly of girls who have sex, especially when they do it safely, but even though I have that awareness I still have those feelings. Which means they’re really deep ingrained, from evolution.
And yes I know guys are people with feelings you don’t need to condescend to me. I don’t know what in my comment makes you think I don’t like guys or something. I have a lot of respect for guys. Evolutionary psychology is not crap, it’s science and it’s logical. What is crazy is disbelieving in evolutionary psychology. Believing that our physical bodies have evolved and physical traits have been selected for but our brains haven’t — that’s just silly.
And I never said that people who are infertile do not have value I said they don’t have biological value, in the sense that they can’t pass on their genes (which the only goal of evolution). So for evolution they are a dead end. Why do you think women go to such great length to emphasize traits that are associated with fertility?
“but even though I have that awareness I still have those feelings. Which means they’re really deep ingrained, from
evolutionculture.”there we go.
And “evolutionary psychology” is mostly very, very bad science, ok? There is lots to read on the internet about that if you really care.
I know that some people don’t think much of evolutionary psychology, well there’s another side to that too. Those same people are going after evolutionary psychology because it doesn’t fit with there ideas about how the world should be. It’s a new field and yes some of it is bound to be wrong but that’s the point of peer review and stuff. There are high quality peer reviewed journals for evolutionary psychology.
Also it really bugs me when feminists make out like evolutionary psychology is this evil thing because it’s really not. I am a feminist, and I’m also interested in studying evolutionary psychology. The two are not incompatible, and evolutionary psychology can help feminism get a better understanding of gender too.
Honestly, Chloe, I’m a geneticist. I broadly dislike evo psych for all sorts of science reasons. Tell you what, I’ll write a post about it.
My new post on evolutionary psychology.
For some actual sex ed: check out this post on talking to your sex partners, and the others in our Sex Ed category.
Thank you so much for this.
You are entirely welcome.
I’d like to have a conversation with you about this because (1) Considering logic and compassion, I think it’s irresponsible to pretend/portray that there is a case for sexual activity outside of marriage; and (2) I think you’ve contradicted yourself. First, who is your target audience and what were you trying to accomplish by writing this?
I’m not going to have any kind of discussion about any dictate of when to or not to have sex that is supposed to apply to everyone. I think I’ve made it pretty clear that I think that’s a choice individuals should make for themselves. And one I think everyone should be able to make for themselves without getting shamed for it in either direction.
My target audience is people who grew up in the purity culture, who have been taught the whole virgin/whore dichotomy, particularly women who were told there’s something wrong with them if they want sex or choose to have sex and that no good man will ever want them if they do that and that they’ll never be (and aren’t worthy of being) loved.
To those women directly: There’s nothing wrong with you. There’s nothing to be ashamed of of. You are worthy of love.
Also to say that if you feel like hell after losing your virginity to a rapist, a devastatingly common story, it’s not because sex is bad. It’s because *rape* is bad.
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Interesting. I totally agree with everything here. I do have an addendum however. For those of us not raised in a purity or virginal culture, like myself, we are taught a whole different set of rules. Many of my friends and classmates in high school and even now, in my first two years of college have become parents. There isn’t that rigid you’re a slut if you have sex. It’s quite a normal and openly discussed thing here in California.
But, what I have been taught is no less damaging. I am obese. I always have been, and for the foreseeable future, I will be. And I have always been taught “No one will ever love you, have sex with you, be proud to have you on his arm. IF a man likes you, no matter what he looks like, you gotta treat him well, and do what he wants, so you don’t lose him” Everyone told me various versions of that, and I believed it. Still do, actually, though I see the stupidity in it.
I was 18 when I met a 23 year old man online. We got along great, and he wasn’t a creeper, so he came and picked me up. At this point and time in my life, I had never kissed a boy, or done anything past an extended hug. No boy ever liked me, and the ones who said they did were lying to me.
So when this guy picked me up, and I was with him in his car, I felt like I was in heaven. I never (even to this day) have met someone who made me feel the way he did. We instantly clicked, and he was so handsome and skinny. We had this great chemistry, an undeniable sense of this is right. We flirted, and he finally gave me my first kiss. That escalated into my first makeout session, and he pulled my breasts out. I told him no, but he said he couldn’t help himself. So I let him, even though I didn’t want to. I enjoyed it, but I didn’t want to move that fast.
He put my hand on his dick, and pulled it out, and told me to go with it. So I stroked him for a while, but then I had to leave, I had school in the morning.
The next day, we were talking about the night before, and he called me desperate. It broke my heart. It felt so right, I never met a guy like him before, who made me feel like he was meant for me. We didn’t even have to speak to each other and we’d be content.
Well, after a second time hanging out where he touched my pussy through my pants, and asked me to fuck, and I said no, he taught me how to get him off. Not too long after he said that we were never going to date, but that he liked me and cared for me, and wanted to keep seeing me.
So for months, I got him off, never once getting off myself. I would call and text him all the time, but he withheld his words and texts for when it was convenient for him. He would tell me about his friends who wanted to date him but he didn’t like them, about the chick he kissed in a bar.
Once, when I hadn’t seen him for almost 2 months, I offered to pay for his gas so he could see me, because I wanted to do something nice. He called me desperate again.
We met up a few days later, but he refused to kiss me, but I still got him off. He wouldn’t even hold me at all at that point and time, and never had. When I tried to get out of his car without hugging him, because I was so hurt, he made me hug him and asked me why did I think I could leave without giving him a hug. Such an intimate, loving hug, yet he couldn’t even kiss me on the lips.
I cried myself to sleep that night. Yet for some reason, I loved him, The time we spent together not doing anything sexual was the best. We got along so well, we’d play and laugh and flirt. We could talk for hours under the stars. But the moment he got horny, I got a makeout session, and return he got a handjob.
The next time I saw him, he taught me how to give him head.
That’s when he started cuddling with me, holding me, falling asleep with in my arms. He’d kiss my forehead and hold me tight. We’d be in each others arms and in those moments, I felt like a girlfriend. Yet he wouldnt date me, and when we weren’t hanging out, he would ignore me for like two weeks straight, sometimes 3. He’d ignore my calls, my texts, etc. Then he’d call, we’d have an amazing conversation, and two nights later he’d come pick me up.
Finally I wanted to fuck him. He told me no. I said well then get me off. he told me no because then he’d want to fuck me, and if he fucked me while I was still a virgin, it wouldn’t be fair for when I actually had a bf who wanted me to get attached to him. He didn’t want me attached to him, he said, like he was to the girl he lost his virginity to. Yet, after that talk that broke my heart, I kissed him and told him I understood, then I blew him.
I hated myself for that, almost as much as I loved the guy, when he wasn’t treating me like a cum dumpster or ignoring me.
I cried myself to sleep many nights, and a few months after that incident, he vanished from my life. Just stopped replying to my calls, my texts, and I tried for months to contact him. I cried constantly, but I told myself I deserved it, I knew he didn’t want to be my boyfriend, I got him off all those times, I was the whore, and he didn’t want or need my feelings.
To this day, a year and a half after the 8 months with him ended, I still believe in my heart that I deserved what I got. That I didn’t deserve him as a boyfriend, that he would have been ashamed to be seen with me, that because I weigh 300 pounds, I didn’t deserve sex or orgasms, and that I am a whore.
The worst part is, I genuinely think he was a good guy who treated me bad because I was conditioned to be ultra pleasing, since who knew when I was gonna meet a man like him again. He had come out of a bad relationship, and instead of a girl hurting him, here was some fat virgin who thought he was great and didn’t stop seeing him when she was told she’d never be his girlfriend.
It bothers me that I met someone so awesome, personality wise, who I got along with completely, who my chemistry with broke the charts, and who was so handsome, and I’ve never met a man like him since.
Never met a man who could make me feel the same way.
And I think it has alot to do with the way I was trained, as a fat girl. Maybe even my father’s ultra Christianity passed down to me, why else would I think i am a whore for trying to show someone how much I cared with my body?
The biggest problem is, we teach girls that you must please a man if you are ugly, even if he ignores your emotional and physical needs, the way that man did to me. I’m 20 now and I still hurt over it.
My heart breaks for you. That sense of learned powerlessness and scarcity is awful, whether it comes from “you’re a slut, no good man will ever want you,” or “you’re fat, no good man would ever want you,” or anything else.
You are good enough and you are worthy of love.
The way that dude acted is shitty… and almost certainly not about you at all. He probably did really like you and he probably was really attracted to you. And he was probably really ashamed of himself, for being attracted to a woman who is not a shape our culture says is OK to find sexy. So he acted like he was ashamed of you, tried to push his shame off on you. That’s not because you’re desperate (what a fucking shitty thing to say, jesus), or fat, or a virgin, or anything else. That’s because he clearly does not have his shit together.
Or he is just a complete asshole who gets off on power. Still not about any self-perceived flaw in you.
Take care of yourself.
Thank you for this! No surprise that I’m from the South and this reads like a story of my teen and college years. It took a long time to break out of that mindset and cycle, but I’m so happy I did because it definitely got better!!!
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